A Little History:
Our story begins in Pocatello, Idaho, circa 1972, when the lovely Debby Christensen agreed to a first, though fateful date with admirer, David Croshaw. Long story-short, he bade her follow him, and they went arm-in-arm to the Logan, Utah temple for establishment of an eternal family unit, Generation 1, on May 23 1973.

From their first blissful summer in Salt Lake City, educational pursuits took them to Provo/Orem, Utah, birthplace of Leslie and Rebecca, and to San Francisco/Oakland California, birthplace of Colin and Matt. Then, for establishment of livelihood, expansion of the tribe with Abby and Dana, and for raising/unifying of Generation 2, it was back to the roots in Pocatello for a rewarding sojourn.

In time, driven by a raging, but commonly shared sense of adventure and independence, one-by-one, Generation 2 escaped the homeland to distant regions of the country and the world, each ultimately developing their own tribal expansions by pairing with worthy mates and initiating Generation 3.

Now sensing fulfillment of their purpose in Pocatello, Generation 1 has also left those roots and transplanted to Cascade Idaho, from which base, they anticipate more abundant contact with The Posterity, Generations 2 and 3, in the future. That contact however, awaits fulfillment of a call to LDS missionary service in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, wherein they hope to help the state of the world by sharing the love of Jesus Christ.

So now, including Generation 0 (Grandma and Grandpa Christensen) home base includes Yuma, Arizona, Pocatello, Idaho, Cascade, Idaho, Vancouver, BC, Fort Lauderdale, Florida, Spokane, Washington, Boise, Idaho, Los Angeles, California, back to Boise, Idaho, and on and on (Generation 3+) to infinity.

Our Mission Statement:
This is the blog of our eternal family unit. Initiated years ago, it served well as a journal, but even more so, as an archive of our personal interaction. It was a gathering place, a confabulation instrument, a unifying force for four generations of widely dispersed and progressively prolific posterity, and their valued associates. Though it served these purposes well for many years, it eventually took a back seat to new-kids-on-the-block, Facebook, and Instagram, and was sadly forgotten.

We now move to resurrect this blog with an added functional purpose of archiving the missionary experiences of Generation 1, of their movements and activities as they participate with The Gathering of Israel in the land northward. In so doing, we hope that via their own comments and posts, this blog will again serve to gather and unify the posterity and their friends.

As in the past, that the young and vibrant may know the old and tired, that enduring bonds may be fostered and maintained, that experience and encouragement may be openly shared, that posterity may embrace truth, and that hearts may be knit together, we must resist detachment despite our geographic divergence. We shall do so here.

Monday, June 8, 2009

Redistribution of Wealth

Here are a few inspired thoughts from earlier times. Do you see any of this being fulfilled today?

Ezra Taft Benson on Socialism: - 1977
Why is socialism incompatible with man's liberty? Socialism cannot work except through an all-powerful state. The state has to be supreme in everything. When individuals begin to exert their God-given rights, the state has to suppress that freedom. So belief in God must be suppressed, and with that gone, freedom of conscience and religion must also go.

Economist Milton Freedman on government spending: - 1977
He indicated that government spending in the United States at all levels that year, amounted to over 40% of the total national income. If we continue to follow the trend in which we are heading today (1977,) two things will inevitably result: first, a loss of our personal freedom, and second, financial bankruptcy.

U.S. President James Madison on the welfare state:
If Congress can employ money indefinitely to [promote the general welfare according to its whims,] they may take the care of religion unto their own hands; they may appoint teachers in every state, county, and parish and pay them out of their public treasure; they may take into their own hands the education of children, establishing in like manner, schools throughout the Union; they may assume the provision of the poor.... Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature of the limited government established by the people of America.

Ezra Taft Benson on Charity:
Americans have always been committed to taking care of the poor, aged, and unemployed. We have done this on the basis of Judaio-Christian beliefs and humanitarian principles. It has been fundamental to our way of life that charity must be voluntary if it is to be charity. Compulsory benevolence is not charity.

U.S. President Grover Cleveland
...Though the people support the government, the government should not support the people.

Political Philosopher Sir Edmund Burke on the threat of economic equality:
[If we attempt economic equality,] a perfect equality will indeed be produced - that is to say, equal wretchedness, equal beggary, and on the part of the petitioners, a woeful, helpless, and desperate disappointment. Such is the event of all compulsory equalizations. They pull down what is above; they never raise what is below; and they depress high and low together beneath the level of what was originally the lowest.


Crystal said...

Ok, I am prepared to be blasted, BUT... I may change my mind when we become rich and are taxed EVEN MORE, BUT...what about Acts 4:

31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were aassembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that bought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35 And laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed aBarnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.

I know what people are saying with this redistribution, but I know of plenty who have benefitted from welfare in order to be educated, etc., in a society that is anti-socialism to the hilt, that would be impossible. While basic needs may be provided for, the desire to be educated would be undermined for the necessity to work. I, myself, have never had welfare, but I for certain half of the LDS families (maybe more) who were in various schools at UVa with me were on it.

I also know that Matt works 12 hour days- after his 4th 12 hour day, he makes about 2$ an hour because of the higher rate of taxes. Infuriation much? I wont even go there about the cost of health insurance...

My point is, some of us have/would benefit from a touch of socialism ;-)

beckyV said...

Thanks dad, Ray and I have been talking a lot about Ezra Taft Benson's writings recently. He talks about a sort of "litmus test" (my words) to use. When you expect something from the government, how would you feel about going around to your neighbors who have more than you and asking them for that money? Is that fair? That is basically what socialism is.

Also, in regards to the law of consecration spoken of in Acts, I have no problem following God's law, if that is what he commands us to do. What I have a problem with is the government compelling me to do it. That takes away my free agency. That is Satan's plan, not God's. God's law of consecration is divine, it will be truly glorious when the day comes that we are worthy to truly live it. Government is wasteful, gluttonous, and corrupt. In my opinion, socialism couldn't be further from the law of consecration.

David and Debby said...

this is just a little snippet from the talk. i would recommend you all go read it. pres. benson explains why socialism will not work. it is interesting that several things he predicts have come to pass. here is the link to the talk. it is better if you read the whole thing. in the law of consecration, everyone is taken care of, and everyone is not equal. there is private ownership. it is only praticed by the righteous. reading the entire talk is very helpful. here is the web address. http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6162

beckyV said...

This is Ray now.
I could probably write a book on this topic. What is happening today is the rotten fruit of 100 years of progressive thought that has moved us away from the God given gift that is the Constitution of the United States of America. In the beginning of the Great Depression, US Government spending was at 2%. The New Deal extended the length and severity of the Great Depression, that created and expanded government through "programs" that are still in force today. Once a new "program is implemented, it will generally not be retracted, and the burden of paying for that program remains the burden of the people who actually pay taxes. The New Deal era playbook it seems has been revisited. IT DID NOT WORK THEN, IT WILL NOT WORK NOW.

President Benson correctly points out in many of his writings, that what he cannot do as an individual, cannot be done through government. He also points out that the people have created the government and that we cannot grant the government powers that we ourselves do not possess. The creation cannot exceed the creator.

David and Debby said...

Adding to Ray's last statement: as Burke said, compulsory equalizations, will ultimately place us ALL in a position beneath the level of what was originally the lowest, and we will have equal wretchedness, equal beggary, and deperate disappointment. Of course, he made this prediction some time ago, and we have since headed down that road, especially so in the last few months. We all need to get ready for harder times, and hope that the Millennium will not be far behind, when we can appreciate the beauty of a voluntary united order, as Crystal described from Acts, that will not encroach our agency.

Crystal said...

I definitely agree that New Deal type things will never work, I am a little more moderate when it comes to a sliding system of taxation of wealth. HowEVER, I am fundamentally of the belief that people should not be taxed at ALL on what they earn by working hard. I also am fairly (way more than I "should be) generous with donations and that sort of thing because I have been given much. At the same time, it is my true hope that that will touch the lives of those who need it most.

I do not think that programs for those who need help are meant to be hateful is my point, and I think many families have benefitted greatly from social programs that most of this redistribution intends to help, that is all.

I totally think the financial politics right now are atrocious, at best.

David and Debby said...

i think you crystal, are an exception to those who have lived lives like you. you have worked hard, by yourself, to be where you are today. if all people who received help, and i frankly do not know if you even received much help, but if all were like you, there would be no problem with the welfare system. you truly are an exceptional, kind, caring person.

Colin -N- Lori said...

I completely agree with a welfare system much like the church has set up. But even they say to get help from the available resources from the community. Government welfare was originally intended to be temporary, but somewhere along the line it turned into generations being raised on it without ever trying to do otherwise. People who are on welfare should be aware that they are expected to become self sufficient.
The way Obama is setting up the tax system penalizes those who are most successful. It discourages someone to become more successful because it. The law of consecration doesn't say we should all be completely equal by being the same, it says we should contribute all to the greater cause. The difference between the law of consecration and Obama is that he is stealing from the rich to give to those who don't even want to try. Sure it sounds good on paper, but so does Communism.
Socialism will ruin America. Look at the history of Venezuela (or is it Argentina) who was a country like the US until they turned into a Socialist country, and it was all downhill from there.

Crystal said...

I have never been on welfare, not for one day, since I was a child whose parents got it. I do think people should work hard and um... well, I have never done anything but that. I have had a job since I was 15 years old, never have I NOT had a job... despite what I want as a mother...

In college I had at least 2 jobs, in the summer between college and graduate school, I had three. Two of them were full time. I had one day off that whole summer. My babysitter told me that if they won the lottery, they would give it to me so I could see my child.

I chose graduate school over medicine so I would be making money, not borrowing more and so that I would be contributing more to the family. I sometimes think that was not the best decision, but my intentions were good ones.

Socialism will not be what we have. There are too many of us who don't want that to let it happen- that is the beauty of a democracy. There are plenty of failing countries right now, ours included, for plenty of reasons, and the reason ours is failing happened before the current presidency. It is anyone's best guess how a decision will affect a country. That is why it is so important to run our families with sound, gospel-based principles. That HAS to be the righteous subunit that at least a number of people in this country share.

I don't like bashing people or categorically explaining things away because it is odious and it makes me feel bad as a person.

Just because some are born into poor families and other into wealthy families does not allow the wealthy (or those who plan to be wealthy) to pass judgement on the poor for being poor. I go by the things said in the Bible and other scriptures and remember what Christ himself said about helping others (and in fact, who he hung out with). It is our choice, but it is also commanded of us to help, judge not and be just.

I have a socialistic attitude about that, but at the same time, it is in my limited, family view. I believe if able, I should help those less-able. I have made it a priority, in fact. I am grateful I do not have to make these decisions for a country. In fact, there is talk of California not having a welfare system at all. That is not socialistic at all, in fact, it is the opposite. I attest that that is going to cause lots of children to go hungry. And yes, maybe their parents DO need to be more-responsible, but as a parent whose child has (recently) gone hungry despite my best efforts to work hard, I think it cold-hearted and unkind.

I feel pretty passionate about this because I used to sit on the porch waiting for the mail so I could get food stamps, run to the grocery store and my brothers and I could eat. And I would be doing that because my mom was working and my step-father was working, so I got to be the responsible one in that case. As for generations being raised on welfare, I honestly have no experience with that, so I can not make intelligent comment over it. However, I am open to hearing your take on it.

I understand how the rich should not be so taxed, I get it.

I do think we can separate that issue from helping the less- fortunate; it is not stealing. It is being responsible for our citizens.

If I ever do become wealthy in the terms I had always hoped to be and have always worked toward, I may change a bit, but fundamentally I feel an individual who HAS been monetarily blessed should feel compelled to share.

I do think current proposed legislation take that desire and make it a compulsion to the extent that it is financially unfeasible to give to the extent a generous soul would like to give. a 50% tax is unfair by any measure, I agree with that.

I also have faith that that will not happen in this country for all the promises and prophecy made as long as there was "but one righteous soul" in the land... between now and the millineum, there will be much strife, but I feel fundamentally, the Lord will see fit that our country will remain sound.

Colin -N- Lori said...

I have extreme issues with Obama telling me that I HAVE to give my money to him so he can give my money to others. That money goes through how many hands, pays how many middle men, government officials, and then finally gets to someone who needs it? How much will be left? Helping others is what the Lord wants us to do, it makes me feel good to help my fellow men but I don't need to be made to do it and neither should anyone else. Like Becky said it takes away my agency, my willingness to want to serve in the way God intended. It is satan's way to make us do things. Satan's plan forced us, if we messed up that was it. I don't want to be forced to give my money, I want to feel the Spirit prompt me to share my wealth with others. I want to do what Jesus would do. I know I have the potential to be financially blessed one day. I look forward to the many opportunities I will have pass this blessing on to others who truly need it. Others should share because they WANT to. We are of a carnal mind, we are selfish, I am selfish. My husband works dang hard and he should be compensated for it. If more of us who are blessed with the necessities of life were happy with what we have, if we lived within our means, prepared for the future, if we didn't compare ourselves with others and followed God's law would there be such a mess? There will certainly be those who work the system.

The Lord has commanded us to judge righteously. St. John 7:24 Judge not according to your traditions, but judge righteous judgment. I am not about to give my money to someone who goes and spends it on wickedness. I will go buy someone a meal, buy them clothing, pay their rent, help them find a job, get them back on their feet not because someone tells me I should but because it is what I should do. I remember hearing one person tell me her husband asked to be laid off just so they could get on Medicaid. Socialism will not change people. It will not make them hard workers, less violent, more educated or even happier. It may do quite the opposite. Hey, if someone wants to give me extra money I don't have to work for why would I work EVER!

Socialism is not the answer! There will still be pride and wickedness, those who will find ways to get around the system. The american people will not stand for it. We are tired of being forced, Satan's way, to do things.

beckyV said...

Ray again.

The poverty I was raised in was my greatest motivator. If people are made to feel comfortable in their poverty, there is no reason to improve.

I had a hard time with Joseph Smith before I joined the Church. I believed in my heart that he had perpetrated one of the greatest frauds in human history with the BOM. It came down to either Joseph was what he said he was, and it was all true, or he wasn't, and was therefore a fraud like I had suspected. It turns out I believe.

I also believe in the Constitution. It is a God breathed document that we must live by, even when it is inconvenient, or we throw it out completely. It was designed to protect our individual rights, rights granted us by our Creator. To suggest that a little bit of Socialism is ok, is to suggest that a bit of Cancer is ok, or a bit of adultery. It is not. The government is involved in areas that it was never designed to be involved in, and we will reap what we sow as a society.

I am honestly on the fence about whether we deserve the gift that we have been given by the Founding Fathers. We as a people have squandered what we have been given. If you would like a good look at cradle to grave government charity, take a look at housing projects. I don't want that for my future, or my children's.

Obama is smart. He should clearly understand the quickest way to hurt wage earners is to over-burden wage payers. It is such a plain principle.

Crystal said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
David Chipman said...

Hmmm.. not sure I dare jump in on this one. Oops... here I go. I'm just going to say that I've enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on this. I almost put a post on my blog this morning about how frustrated I'm getting with the approaches I see to solving our financial problems, but I promised my mom that I would use good Christian language and be nice to others. :)

Anyway, these comments really make me appreciate how important gospel principles are, and how important it is to teach them in our families. Maybe that should be called Trickle Over Morality. We could write a book about it. Wait. No. There already is one. If you need a copy, I'll share a phone number with you and two nice young men or women will bring you one. You can even choose between the thick version and the thin version!

I had typed out a bunch of other thoughts on this, but decided I'd better just keep it simple toady. Thanks for sharing!

David and Debby said...

Oh, I love the smell of napalm in the morning. What a hot topic! I had not idea when I posted this that it would generate such fire. But, I love everyone's fire, regardless of direction. I would much rather you all be strongly opinionated than that you be apathetic and ignorant. Your opinions show that you think and you care.

David, welcome to the blog, but you don't have to tiptoe around. We can take your most intense expressions. Come on in, the water is fine.

Just want to share some thoughts I had about Crystals original comment. What a great scriptural reference that was. As you read that, it seems clear that those early Christian Saints were living the United Order in the true spirit of the law, and experincing real joy from it. How great would that be if we could do that, if we could be so unaffected by status and stuff? How much better would that be than our current system? Of course, we can't expect our government nor our countrymen to understand those principles nor have any faith in their potential. As in those verses from Acts, such a system could only exist under the direction of a true theocracy where participation was not compulsory, and where all participants shared the true Spirt of the Lord, thus pushing out any influence of Satan. One drop of selfishness or force would spoil it all. Perhaps at some point in our mortal futures, we will be so tested, but for now, I suspect most of us are not prepared for such. Some day, in the Millennium, when Satan is bound, we will be there. Until then, we must keep trying to put off our natural man, and be as charitable as we can.

David Chipman said...

Thanks! I probably will be more candid in the future. I'm still getting used to the whole blog thing and figuring out how much I like to send out across the web vs in person. Fun new times in the blogosphere!

Colin -N- Lori said...

I love you David! David, father-in-law David, that is. Well, I like D.K. Chipman well too. Anyway, You are always wise in bringing us together. Your job as head of the Croshaw family right? Such a good summary of how I feel, and I think how the rest of us feel. Not that I would speak for anyone else. Such a wonderful and diverse family we have. I am proud to be a Croshaw.

beckyV said...

Has David been invited into the circle of trust?

Jason and Dana said...

Ok, let me set everyone straight here, and put a little common sense into this rant.
Didn't the new deal involve unemployed people going out and digging holes and then filling them back up again?
That is what I'm talking about.

Colin -N- Lori said...

We can't tell David Chipman about Dad being a secret agent yet. Oops! Just think Paul Blartish secret agent, segway and all.

David and Debby said...

I just want to say... Thank you for the love! I love you too Lori.

Ray, You know, I don't think I've gotten an application from Mr. Chipman yet. Jason, have you sent that out? We really need to know if he can use a shovel, and if he knows how to milk a cat. Until then, Mr. D.K. Chipman, if that is really your name, I'm watching.

Colin, Dangit, what are top secrets for anyway? Now we'll have to give him the oath before he's ready, or kill him. At least he hasn't heard me speak Arabic yet.

Jason, the CCC (Civilian Conservation Corp) did a lot of digging allright, but it wasn't holes. I think you've confused that with your favorite movie, or with your own identity. Around here, they dug terraces on the hillsides to prevent erosion, and yes, it was linked with the New Deal. It was Roosevelt's version of Obama's bailout, with exception that the people actually had to work for the money. And they were happy to do it because unemployment was about 400%, and they had an afinity for eating.

And, finally Colin, I am not not up to the standards of Paul Blart, but I am proud to be president of


And, my dream when I get really old will be to drive a Segway through WalMart. I could run circles around those codgers in power chairs.

abbynormal said...

Of COURSE we can let DK Chipman in the circle of trust! And I move that my input in this decision bear a little extra weight than everyone else's combined.

I believe I already sent him the application. I just didn't know when an open position in the family would be officially available. Does that mean applications are now being accepted and he can go ahead and send it in? I think he's really been taking his time working on it.

Jason and Dana said...

OK, I haven't read all the comments above mine on this, besides the first two, can someone give me the cliff notes version here, or do I really have to go back and read the whole thing. It is not making much sense....
And Abby, I lament to tell you that you were not an authorized representative to give DK the application for the family. Version 1.1 will be out shortly.
And I thought Larry David was the secret agent. David, you have some explaining to do.

Colin -N- Lori said...

Abby, you are a little to close to the "other side", a little biased, so unfortunately your opinion on this one is out the window. Sorry

Colin -N- Lori said...

Glad to know that I am the one who thought up DK Chipman and it is being used frequently, even by his closest admirer. Debby though it would take Colin and Ray to keep the confusion down with a nick name. I am cooler than I thought I was. Well, I never thought that, ever.

David and Debby said...

I am going to comment again for a couple of reasons: (1) to confirm your brilliance and coolness in coining the nickname for Mr. Chipman. D.K. it shall be. Good job, and you have always been cool in my book.
(2) This comment is also being applied to put this post over the top as the all-time "most comments" winner. It even beats Colin's dog post. Just an observation.

David and Debby said...

Oops, I am commenting again only because I am obligated to apply a correction. The previous commment only tied Colin's dog post for most comments. However, this one puts it over the top.