A Little History:
Our story begins in Pocatello, Idaho, circa 1972, when the lovely Debby Christensen agreed to a first, though fateful date with admirer, David Croshaw. Long story-short, he bade her follow him, and they went arm-in-arm to the Logan, Utah temple for establishment of an eternal family unit, Generation 1, on May 23 1973.

From their first blissful summer in Salt Lake City, educational pursuits took them to Provo/Orem, Utah, birthplace of Leslie and Rebecca, and to San Francisco/Oakland California, birthplace of Colin and Matt. Then, for establishment of livelihood, expansion of the tribe with Abby and Dana, and for raising/unifying of Generation 2, it was back to the roots in Pocatello for a rewarding sojourn.

In time, driven by a raging, but commonly shared sense of adventure and independence, one-by-one, Generation 2 escaped the homeland to distant regions of the country and the world, each ultimately developing their own tribal expansions by pairing with worthy mates and initiating Generation 3.

Now sensing fulfillment of their purpose in Pocatello, Generation 1 has also left those roots and transplanted to Cascade Idaho, from which base, they anticipate more abundant contact with The Posterity, Generations 2 and 3, in the future. That contact however, awaits fulfillment of a call to LDS missionary service in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, wherein they hope to help the state of the world by sharing the love of Jesus Christ.

So now, including Generation 0 (Grandma and Grandpa Christensen) home base includes Yuma, Arizona, Pocatello, Idaho, Cascade, Idaho, Vancouver, BC, Fort Lauderdale, Florida, Spokane, Washington, Boise, Idaho, Los Angeles, California, back to Boise, Idaho, and on and on (Generation 3+) to infinity.

Our Mission Statement:
This is the blog of our eternal family unit. Initiated years ago, it served well as a journal, but even more so, as an archive of our personal interaction. It was a gathering place, a confabulation instrument, a unifying force for four generations of widely dispersed and progressively prolific posterity, and their valued associates. Though it served these purposes well for many years, it eventually took a back seat to new-kids-on-the-block, Facebook, and Instagram, and was sadly forgotten.

We now move to resurrect this blog with an added functional purpose of archiving the missionary experiences of Generation 1, of their movements and activities as they participate with The Gathering of Israel in the land northward. In so doing, we hope that via their own comments and posts, this blog will again serve to gather and unify the posterity and their friends.

As in the past, that the young and vibrant may know the old and tired, that enduring bonds may be fostered and maintained, that experience and encouragement may be openly shared, that posterity may embrace truth, and that hearts may be knit together, we must resist detachment despite our geographic divergence. We shall do so here.

Saturday, July 11, 2009

That is where Politically Correct will get cha

I was thinking of political correctness and then this headline popped up on my computer at work today...

A gay couple say they were detained by security guards on a plaza owned by the Mormon church in Salt Lake City and later cited by police, claiming it stemmed from a kiss on the cheek.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said that the men became argumentative and refused to leave after being asked to stop their "inappropriate behavior." The men say they were targeted because they are gay.

Matt Aune said he and his partner, Derek Jones, were walking home from a concert nearby on Thursday night, cutting through the plaza near the Salt Lake City Mormon temple.

Aune, 28, said he gave Jones, 25, a hug and kiss and that the two were then approached by a security guard, who asked them to leave, telling them they were being inappropriate and that public displays of affection aren't allowed on the property. He said other guards arrived and the men were handcuffed.

"We asked what we were doing wrong," Aune told The Associated Press.

Church spokeswoman Kim Farah said in a statement Friday that the men were "politely asked to stop engaging in inappropriate behavior — just as any other couple would have been."

Wow, public displays of affection not allowed is going a little far (all those wedding pictures would say otherwise)... but um. Political correctness will help to escalate this sort of thing into outrage.

Waddaya think?!


Jason and Dana said...

Yeah, I thought the same thing-what about all the newly married couples. Hm..sounds like they were targeted to me, but maybe there was more to it than just a hug and a kiss, I hope so anyway.

beckyV said...

I have a friend who got engaged at temple square and the same thing happened to them, they were hugging/kissing (nothing major, like making out either, according to her) and the security guard broke it up. I don't know if they were specifically targeted or not, HOWEVER, I DO NOT want my children to see 2 gay men kissing on church property (or anywhere for that matter). That plaza is private property and the church can make the rules. As far as married couples go, the church makes an obvious distinction between married relationships and dating relationships.

David and Debby said...

i haven't heard about this incident, but i do know that the press does not ever give the church the benefit of the doubt. we don't have all details, but evidently the people hung around, arguing long enough for the police to come. i would assume that the security guard came up to them and quietly asked them to stop the public display of affection. i suspect that the couple may have been belligerent and ready for a fight. it is different when a couple gets married. like becky said, too, it is private property. i am sure we will be hearing more about this.

abbynormal said...

I can see how this could get really messy, thanks to our good friend, the media. Becky, I was actually seriously relieved when I read your part, that they do it to everybody. But it's a good point you make - it's technically private property, so they can make whatever rules they want.

David and Debby said...

I remember living in Oakland, CA, in about 1982-83, and we took the Leslie and Becky to a lake park in Berserkly. There were a couple of guys laying on the beach making out. You can bet we hussled the kids right out of there, and it sort of ruined our planned day in the park. We later found out that that beach was a regular haunt for gays (I think they had just commandeered it over time, and all the other people who didn't want to be exposed to such things wrote that park off,) but of course we didn't know that before we went.

I suppose they have a right to be there as well as Temple Square, just like anyone else, but whether you're hetero or homo, reserve your touchy-feely affection for non-public places please. I would bet these guys in SLC were not just walking through the plaza, but were loitering around and putting on a pretty good show. Why would security ask them to leave if they were already on their way out? Of course, the media doesn't give all the details because then the story wouldn't be sensational enough. We have to wait for the expensive court battle for the details to come out.

Jason and Dana said...

Touchy-feely affections like a hug and a kiss? I'm sorry, but it sounds like discrimination to me. I'm with Abby, I'm relieved to hear it's happened to a man/woman couple as well. I was thinking it might have been the guard who reacted to that, and not a general rule. I guess not though.

beckyV said...

I think that it was the gay couple targeting the Church. Ray

Crystal said...

I have no idea what was going on and here is something weird, when I was looking for more information on it Saturday, a whole page of google results showed up. Today when I googled, it, I found one result. That is odd.

The thing that sort of made me go "heh?" was that they said it was a hug and a kiss on the cheek and that they responded in offense by the approach by the security guard.

It is private property, there are rules (wasn't David a security guard at a temple? Were there rules then? By the way, Oakland may be one of my top favorite temples)...

But security guards can sometimes be a little control happy and freaky when it comes to telling people what to do and making them mind.

HowEVER, the facts are (likely deliberately) very hazy in the report, so who know what happened, but for sure, it was written to incite anger.

That being said, if Matt kissed me at a gay-owned area of town (I am just saying), I might be a little upset if we were handcuffed over it. And... not to get into many details, but I have been kissed on temple square and not asked to leave ;-)

David and Debby said...

I recall chasing occasional hetero parkers off the Oakland Temple grounds, and there was an occasion where Sioni Lui, one of our large Tongan guards decked a drunk who was trying to climb the fence after hours, but I don't remember there being any policy or issues about homosexuals. And Oakland is next-door to S.F., but it was also early 80's when most of them were still in the closet. I can tell you though that I would have taken matters into my own hands and acted assertively if I had observed any overt displays of homosexual affection on the sacred grounds.

Jason and Dana said...

I think they should save this kind of Gay activity for Lake Lowell. Right Ray?

David and Debby said...

If we see any of that at Lake Powell, we can conduct some ninja war games on them in the dark of night. Just kidding - Persecution is not the answer, but we could invite them to find another canyon outside the influence of our children.

Colin -N- Lori said...

Reminds me of the time Arvilla tried to chase Lori and I out of the yard for "making out". I'll chalk that one up to blindness and she was 90. Good times at 230 Park. Mom, Dad, Lori and I were out in the back yard one Sunday and we were laying on a blanket. I give Lori a little kiss, and Grandma stands up and tells us there is no making out in the yard and tries to pick up the blanket with us still on it. I can't imagine if she saw a gay couple kissing. She would be absolutely mortified. Normal was quite different for her than it will be for my kids. I still remember when Will and Grace came out how extreme it was. Times have changed.
I guess it's my job to let my kids know that there is nothing good or right or normal about same sex relationships. The world has made this line between right and wrong practically invisible. I am still surprised sometimes when I have conversations with my "religious" friends who don't see anything wrong with it.
I believe that when it comes time for judgement all men will know if the choices they made were right or wrong, period. The "God wants me to be happy, and this makes me happy" won't work so well when they're face to face with him. There's a scripture in Isaiah 3:9 that says "The show of their countenance doth witness against them; and doth declare their sin to be even as Sodom, and they cannot hide it." We will all know our sins and will not be able to hide them when that time comes.
As far as the situation in Salt Lake goes, I choose to believe they were asked nicely. For the cops to even get involved tells me the situation, however it started, escalated to the point where the security guard had to make a call to the police, and escalate further, leading to the men being handcuffed. Security guards can't hand out citations. That's a police officer's job. And what was it about the temple square plaza that prompted a kiss anyway? Was it the way the moon was rising over the angel Moroni, in a place owned by a church that allegedely "hates gays". Their intentions seem pretty transparent to me. If they were discriminating against anything, it is the behavior, not the sexual orientation. I guess they also discriminate against people with signs at conference time because they don't let them on church property to protest against the church.

Jason and Dana said...

I know it's wrong, but there is something in me that hates reading things like this. Yeah, I don't want my kids watching it (or even anyone kissing at this point in their lives) but I don't want my kids thinking they have to hate people that live differently, or judge them because they don't believe what we believe. It's wrong, but so is smoking and drinking and lying. I really struggle with this topic and what my reaction "should" be.

beckyV said...

Dana, I too have struggled, and still do, with this issue. I don't think anyone is saying that you should hate someone because they are gay. I worked with a lot of gay people in restaurants over the years and I became really good friends with a few of them. One thing, however, that I am absolutely sure of is that I do not want my children exposed to something like that when they are so young and the world is so black and white to them. I also don't want my kids to think that they have to hate someone who lives differently and that is exactly why I don't want them exposed to something like this at this point in their lives. They can't understand the concept of love the sinner, hate the sin. I do not think this is a black or white issue, but trying to explain that to them the way it needs to be explained is way beyond them at this point. I agree that everyone struggles with sin, but there are different degrees of sin and smoking/drinking don't even come close to this.

Jason and Dana said...

I know no one is saying you should hate people who are gay, but if you are so intolerant of them in front of your children, what else are they going to learn? And while I know it's in a different leauge of sins, but I really believe there are people in the world who ARE gay, that's just what they are, whether it's brain chemicals or some genetic difference. I don't think that is the case with all of them, but definitely some. Maybe because I think that way that is why I feel differently about it.
I don't want to have to explain this to my kids yet either, I am with you on that Becky.

Crystal said...

I agree with the anti hate sentiment. My current boss is fantastic, beautiful and gay. My best friend in grad school lost his partner to AIDS and I still cry over it. I used to be of it. I love these guys. I used to think as long as a person was a kind person everyone was ok. In fact it was rebellion in some ways to the intolerance I was taught- against homosexuality... Living in sin.. Single fathers... When I got to college I did not even thunk homosexuality was real! Then I realized it is ok to disagree with the practice but not be a hater. My eyes were really opened when I discovered gay frogs one night in my lab... The thing is, I typically really like the personality of gay men. Not sure why, bit I do... I have had to talk with Valerie about it a couple times and she knows the way I feel- which is a scriptural basis. Many religions don't follow scripture any more and that is a huge problem. I say it seems like it is ok to be anything but conservative Christian any more. The thing is though, I think it unwise to be a hater. It is ok to stand for things and not be enforcer. But then again... I really don't know much... But just as I have not made race an issue in my parenting, I will not point out homosexual behavior. But I will clarify my understanding of it if I need to. The thing is... We can't go around saying things in a generalized manner it is just not good.

Colin -N- Lori said...

That article doesn't say anything about hate, but that's the way it will be spun. The things that Crystal and Dana and Becky are exactly what the church says about homosexuality. Like Abby said, Mormons are the last acceptable discrimination. The Catholic church and many others are much more harsh about the subject than our church is, but you will never, ever see a negative comment about one of those churches.
Why is there any doubt about what the church representative said - they don't allow public displays of affection in the plaza - by anyone, gay or straight. Does anyone believe they are lying to us?

Crystal said...

There was a big stink about a gay parade that decided to drop in on a catholic mass and many, many people cross-dressed took the sacrament there. Can you imagine being that priest?

My bff is pentacostal and they are very, VERY discriminated against and her particular sect especially so because they are pro-life and anti same-sex marriage. It is not just "us" but it does seem like it is just conservative Christians.

I dont think church leaders are lying to us, but I do suspect that security guard overreacted. I have seen plenty of displays of affection on Temple Square... evenings in the summer, particularly... and I did not see anyone asked to leave is all I am saying. If it is a policy, I am actually surprised it is not more enforced, and where is the limit? Can a mom kiss her baby? A grandpa kiss his freshly returned missionary?

David and Debby said...

I'm not sure how the H word got into all this. That really is not what it is about. And, I don't see any reason to presume that the security guard overreacted, unless the article confirmed that to be the case. He may have been entirely appropriate in his approach, and may have been enforcing the policy as was his job. Maybe not. We don't know. We do know the gay community has a beaf against the Church. Frankly, I would expect the Church to regard heterosexual affection differently than homesexual affection, and then to enforce that on their own property. Why should the Church have to act like there's no difference, just because the world says so. You can call black white or bad good all day, but that doesn't make it so. The Church will never bow to the world's opinion. In the end, the Church, as Christ's earthly representative, will stand alone in defending the truth, and every knee shall bow and every tongue confess.

Regarding the anti christian conservative bias and, and the world's twisting of everything, we all know the source of that mentality. Starts with an S, ends with an n. If any of you have not read C.S. Lewis' Screwtape Letters, you should definitely do so. It's only about 120 pages long, but it's packed with insight into Satan's devious methods. After you read it, it will be entirely clear to you why our world and our country are deteriorating so rapidly. $10 on Amazon:

That's my story.

Crystal said...

I totally agree David and what is the h word. I just think if there IS going to be a distinction made, it should be called what it is. That was my initial reasoning with political correctness. I like the screwtape letters. Certainly inspired but fiction, alas. I, in fact, love most of his writings. I bet I haven't read them all. I think of all things that have never been accepted so easily, homosexual behavior and abortions are the most shocking but I still am not a hater of the person. After all, I used to wear immodest clothes and I loved margaritas back in my day. I really did not know better. The things I did know, I was true to. Had I been made to feel awful for those things by church types, I would not have been so drawn to the kindness and love and fellowship I felt. Since then, I have really tried to be a kinder, better, more loving me. It has worked out so far except for a couple times that I have inspired anger at my non-desire to fight.

Crystal said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Crystal Scott said...

My phone is duplicating all my replies... and I do not think everything bears repeating, maybe just stating once... so I will delete the dups.

abbynormal said...

I have a friend (who I actually dated for a little while), member of the church, who I recently found out was gay - and had been fighting said tendencies for many, many years. After all, he'd always been taught that there is a definition of happiness that does not include acting on the feelings he'd always had. But he was miserable. He finally decided he didn't want to be miserable anymore, so he stopped fighting and gave in. I found out because I enquired after his gmail status, which said, "never been happier."

I am sad for my friend. Since he came out, he has been ostracized by everyone he knows in the church. He knows very well that he is going against the teachings of the church, but he just was tired of pretending to be something he wasn't. When he told me, I didn't lecture him on how he was going against everything he'd ever known and it would only lead to misery in the end - he already knows how I feel about his actions. I strongly felt that he just needed someone in the church to be his friend and show him respect, someone on our side who would be his ally if he ever needed someone to come to - in spite of our disagreement on this important issue.

I agree with Dana, that some people just have those tendencies wired into who they are. We all have tendencies for sin that we struggle with, and it has always seemed like such a tragedy to me that some people must cope with this particular tendency. This is a difficult subject and although we all know the doctrine, it can be very hard to know how exactly to put "love the sinner, hate the sin" into practice - especially when children are involved. What I learned from my experiences with my friend is to listen closely for the guidance of the Spirit when you are in that situation. There is always Someone who knows the best way to handle the situation, and He'll help you out if you pay attention.

David and Debby said...

I like the way you bump your comments up there Crystal with those double entries and then a follow-up comment to blame it on your phone. 3 for 1. Very interesting.

David and Debby said...

I meant to add: Yes, Screwtape is fiction, but the principles are true.

So I just gave you 2 for 1.

Jason and Dana said...

Bravo Abby.

Leslie said...

I can't believe I just saw this controversial post! For some reason I completely missed it. No one's probably even going to read my comment. I agree with everything everyone has said! Amazing! I think you all think you're saying different things, but I think you're saying the same things but in different ways.

Main points:
1) Agree with Colin. Homosexual acts are wrong. If you believe the Bible; if you believe the prophets, it is wrong. The "Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance". If not in this life, one day we will all have to stare our sins in the face.
2) Having lived in SF for almost 5 years, I have my fair share of gay co-workers and gay friends. In many ways, they are living good lives and doing good things. I treat them as I would any friend who sins, which includes, obviously, all of them (and all of us). I don't think we're supposed to limit our love to those we think are "worthy" of it. The pure love of Christ endureth forever...It has no bounds.
3) Having said that, and not to open a can of worms, I would never vote for gay marriage because I think it's really a choice between adult "rights" and what's best for a child. I truly believe, as the Proclamation on the Family says, having both a father and mother will always be the best for a child, and I will always vote for the children.
4) With regard to discrimination, sorry folks, as a private organization, they have every right to discriminate against whoever they want, especially if it's on their property. I'm not saying they were, but they do have the right. The Boy Scouts don't allow gay leaders. I'm pretty sure the NAACP doesn't allow whites, and I'd be shocked if the NOW allowed men. Everything in life isn't fair, and we have to be okay with that fact.

P.S. Abby, did I use quotation marks correctly? ;-)

beckyV said...

I just read the most recent post on Mormanity,


that made me think of the way Abby dealt with her friend who recently came out and had such a bad experience with other members of the church. This is great advice for dealing with anyone who falls away for whatever reason. You are a great example to us Abby!!